Conversation with a Royal

Srila Prabhupada met with Dr. Karan Singh, a cabinet minister, prominent politician and a member of one of India's royal families in New Delhi on November 25, 1971, and discussed with him the restoration of varnasrama-dharma. This is a short edited excerpt from this conversation.

Prabhupada: I am very glad to see original ksatriya. (Dr. Singh laughs) Rajarsi. Your generation are ksatriya. Actually we give stress in our civilization, brahmana and ksatriya. Kim punar brahmanah punya bhakta rajarsayas tatha. And Krsna says, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. (Hindi) We have lost our ksatriyas, so the Vedic civilization is lost. The ksatriyas are considered to be the arms.

Dr. Singh: And also the?

Prabhupada: And the brahmanas the head. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men, no. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes, you cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible. Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is in the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance, and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. Those who are purely in goodness, they are brahmana. Next to that, passion, ksatriya. And next to that, vaisya, mixture. And next to that, sudra. And next to that, candala.

Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age?

Prabhupada: No, that is not possible. Suppose if you are a ksatriya, you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field.

Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally hard, I can assure you. (laughs) We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact.

Prabhupada: You cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class, manager class. They cannot do without it. It must be there, someone must be their manager. So this division of the society? Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the leg, nor the leg can do the work of the head.

Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swamiji?

Prabhupada: That is wanted.

Dr. Singh: That is what is wanted.

Prabhupada: That is Krsna. Either you may be brahmana or either you may be ksatriya, either you may be vaisya or sudra, it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Krsna, that is your perfection. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, atah pumbhir dvija-srestha varnasrama-vibhagasah. Vibhagasah is accepted, varna asrama. Svanusthi-tasya dharmasya. Everyone has got particular duty to perform. Samsiddhir hari-tosanam. You remain ksatriya, you remain brahmana, you remain sudra, it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Krsna by your activities. That is wanted. Just like Arjuna. He remained a ksatriya. He was a fighter, he was declining to fight, and Krsna said, "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was? He accepted Krsna's discipleship, sisyas te 'ham. "Now I am puzzled, I do not? I am? "Yes. Karpanya-dosa upahata svabhavah.

Dr. Singh: Prcchami tvam dharma-sammudha-cetah.

Prabhupada: Then Krsna taught him Bhagavad-gita. So he remained a ksatriya. But Krsna certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si. So business is how to satisfy Krsna. It doesn't matter whether you are ksatriya, brahmana, ksatriya, it doesn't matter.

Dr. Singh: But really Krsna is not unsatisfied.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Singh: Krsna is fully satisfied already.

Prabhupada: Krsna is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied.

Dr. Singh: So we satisfy ourself by?

Prabhupada: That is the duty. Just like these fingers. Suppose if this finger is not working, I have got another finger. But if this finger does not satisfy me, that means it is diseased condition. It is not a normal condition. Similarly, we are parts and parcel of Krsna. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah. So we are parts and if we do not satisfy Krsna, that means we are in diseased condition, unhealthy.